Weapons Discussion

Activity Forums Side Projects Discussions Last Winter Weapons Discussion

This topic contains 15 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Maharbal Barca 3 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #7215

    Maharbal Barca
    Participant

    On Lance’s suggestion, and some details on Discord by Urbzz, here is a topic to talk about the weapons that will and may be coming to Last Winter 2.0 and how they may work. (note, the discussion is for items that are strictly weapons, not for tools such as knives that could have a secondary use as weapons

    For starters, Urbzz said this in Discord the other night:

    I want to add weapon speed, which would be in direct correlation with the weight and your skill. So you use a Scottish blade it’ll be slow but if you connect it’ll hurt a lot, if you use a espada ropera (med speed med damage but high parry) or a colichemarde (fast good parry) or a court sword (crazy fast but low parry low damage)

    So here are the things so far that we are looking to track with each [melee] weapon:
    -Weight
    -Length (as suggested by Arise)
    -Speed (connected to weight)

    There have also been discussions about firearms, and the introduction of Matchlock weapons:

    I remember that discussion on matchlocks. The important thing is to have mechanics that reflects realism without being abrasive. I think we said that a match would work for an hour (two minutes real time) or event two (4 mikes) before being spent.

    It would be a heavy (if you don’t use the support fork piece you would have maluses) piece of gear too and with a minimal range. Regardless it is still a boom stick and would deliver considerable punch of you score a hit since it has been recorded having a much greater penetration than bows and even crossbows.

    Lance also brought up Arquebuses, a shorter design that would not require the stand, but is older and thus even less reliable. So firearms are open as well, but should we also consider giving them different values?

    -Caliber? Bigger bullet= more stopping power, but take more powder? Would caliber be set for type of musket? or each Musket has unique caliber? i.e all Brown Bess are X caliber and all Tulle are Y vs. Brown Bess A is X caliber, but Brown Bess B is Y caliber. This also means we will need different caliber shot to hold on to.

    -Barrel length? eg. Matchlock w/ fork will have long barrel thus slightly longer range, but longer loading time, vs Arquebus which has shorter barrel and thus less accurate, but shorter reload.

    Urbzz also mentioned the lighting of the match for matchlocks, which also calls into question the flintlock counterpart of replacing flints. You have a chance that your flint breaks while firing, and you cannot use the musket again until you replace the flint. Can be picked up/identified like other stones.

    This post can also be used to suggest and discuss possible new weapons. For example
    Pole-arms: Pike, Halberd, craft-able stone/obsidian spear, Axes
    Swords: Cutlass, two-handed swords eg. Claymore, Sweihander
    Firearms: Matchlocks, Snapchance? Blunderbuss, reintroduction to the bow?
    Shot: Buckshot?
    etc.

    #7219

    Tyrud
    Moderator

    You can certainly go quite crazy with the weapons included in this game, though I think we probably shouldn’t include a lot of very medieval weapons, given that in the year 1650 the ‘modern’ era has been in gear for about two centuries at this point. The Renaissance is nearing its end, meaning lots of stuff has been recently discovered, such as the first Flint-lock system which was developed in 1612 in France. Meanwhile, stuff like the Brown Bess wouldn’t come about until 1722.

    Ultimately, it depends on the time period we are looking at, as the true colonial period as we know it begins in the 18th, rather than the 17th century. If we pick the 18th century, before or after the French-Indian war, we can see things like cavalry sabres, bayonets, muskets, rifles and even the occasional bomb grenade if one is so inclined to include that. If we pick the 17th century to make our home, the weapons of the English civil war will make up our arsenal. This includes, arquebuses and their derivatives, pikes, halberds, bill-hooks, swords of various shapes and sizes.

    Thus the options are many as I mentioned, though it is important to note that the height of the French fur trade occurs between 1650 and 1680, and that its decline corresponds roughly with the rise of a more organized form of the fur trade led by licensed voyageurs sometime after that.

    #7220

    Lance
    Moderator

    Fully with Tyrud on the possible timeline needed make accurate suggestions.
    We need clarification from urbzz on the exact game time. Maybe 1650 is a bit early since there where very few Europeans in general in that area.
    Maybe making the time line 1650+ would be better for all.
    Was looking for a general list of hand held weapons of the time and place but could not find a good site/ link.
    Maybe a Canadian Historical site could offer more. Funny how a lot of them are written in French.
    However I found an article that stated that Tomahawks and other Axes where very popular hand-held and throwing weapons for everyone living in Canada around that time.
    More so then Swords that where also used extensively by the Europeans while Spears and Bows worked more so for the locals.

    #7222

    urbzz
    Keymaster

    Good points all. This is an important topic and all input is appreciated. 1650 was the date of the old LW and while moving forward with LW2 the date is pushed at end of 17th century. Early enough for montreal to be recent but late enough to have muskets being used by the coureurs des bois. Early enough so France and england are not full out at war but rather poking each others with proxy armies of indians, mercenaries and raid parties.

    Early enough so the woods are still in majority unexplored and dangerous. Beavers are still to be found after few days of walk north of Quebec.

    The beauty of muskets at this time is that beside few line troops much of them were not standardized. this can gives us a fair amount of flexibility. A french musket would be fast to reload and of good manifacture, an english musket would be light and portable mostly from their navy issues, a spanish musket would be a hard hitter which takes more time to reload, a turkish muskets would be outrageously well crafted and decorated with elaborate silver sheets while packing quite a punch, dutch muskets would be heavy duty and cumbersome with decent damage and slow reload, North African Mukahla musket would have ridiculous range but be fairly cumbersome. The Italian (Kingdom of Sardinia) musket would have an overall good operation speed and range (barrels were made by Beretta) and finely decorated.

    Concerning swords: the reality is that the coureur des bois would prefer using axes and hatchets more than anything else. Swords were great for war but had very few use for cutting, skinning woodcrafting ect.. Swords were used by gentry in towns and officers and few high ranked mercenaries. Most coureur des bois would rather pack an assortment of short blades and axes for their adventures. This will be reflected in the game by applying respective maluses when trying to skin a deer with a long blade rather than a short blade Or trying to hack a small tree with a rapier (lol) instead of using a hatchet, tomahawk or axe.

    The beauty of an axe is that it’s light and a formidable weapon while being a versatile tool.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by  urbzz.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by  urbzz.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by  urbzz.
    #7267

    Maharbal Barca
    Participant

    Thought I’d lead off with a weapon synonymous with my oft preferred archetype: the cutlass, a distant relative of the basket-hilt swords. I’ll start with the basics and go from there:

    Blade Length: 24-28 inches (635-711 mm.)
    Weight: 2-2.5 pounds (907-1134 gm.)

    The best source I could come up with was on the fly was British Naval Swords and Swordsmanship by Barton and McGrath. However I was most surprised by 2 thing while looking up this information:
    1. “Cutlass” at this period could refer to any number of short, broad blades, mainly the naval hanger. There were also hunting variations of the hanger.
    2. the cutlass or hanger would have been used not only as a weapon, but also as an impromptu tool, at least on ships for its ability to cut ropes and canvas, and for hacking away through brush on land. Its relative simplicity to use also means less training is required. Today “cutlass” is used to refer to machetes in some countries, lending to its added utility.

    #7282

    Lance
    Moderator

    This firearm would/ could be the top of the weapons scale in LW2.

    #7291

    Lance
    Moderator

    No reply…. To good to be in LW eee. Well here a few Pistol examples. One common the other rare.
    Rare type first. You need to see this to believe the ingenuity. https://youtu.be/UyBPaXbp7Qg
    Here a common Spanish type Flintlock. All other nations had these too in the 16th and 17th. https://youtu.be/HXHAMWl3_J0
    This is a wheel-lock system. This gun is a front loader, separate double barrel action with a size of a short musket. https://youtu.be/TfeusAG1oTQ
    Finally a vid showing some standard rifles of the 1660s inc the French type. https://youtu.be/4k-Lm30-nAw
    What I see for powdered firearms in New-France 1680s be anything back from basic 15th century weaponry to high class rarities that make the player go “WOW!!! Lucky me!”.
    It is to consider that the more complicated the firearm the higher the chance for it to break down beyond repair or even critical failures due to our poor skill with these.
    BAM; “Well I guess that be -50% to all rolls from now on and the new nic name Left-Hand-Joe”.

    #7293

    Maharbal Barca
    Participant

    Actually, when I first saw your suggestion, my mind immediately went to the Ferguson Rifle, but alas it is later than our time period, as are most rifles (but with the the time period for LW 2.0 being the 1690s, perhaps we could sneak in some Long Rifles?)

    You brought up the very fashionable double barrel wheel-lock pistol, and while side-by-side double barrel pistols seemed to have shown up in the mid 18th century, it looks like the over-under design was preferred in the 17th, like this set of French Pistols. Obviously these were on the more expensive side.

    But enough with the pea-shooters, how about some serious firepower, like some blunderbusses, or these bad boys!
    What about grenados!? Made of
    gourds
    !!

    #7295

    Lance
    Moderator

    Long Rifles or a variation of them could be possible for LW2. Higher range and accuracy over longer reload, more fouling and longer cleaning time.
    Still a good weapon for our hunter type character.

    Pistols in general would not be so much on our characters wish list simply due to any pistols poor hunting performance, very short range and low damage. Shoot a Bear with this and it will just get madder at you.
    Of course for quicker self defense or the occasional man-hunt/robbery/suicide use it is nice to still have at least one of these with us.

    A blunderbuss type firearm is also not suited for us. These are very short range combat/ later self defense weapons. Very low damage for a large spread.
    Unsure if they make good hunting weapons for smaller game due to their short range.
    Still the very simple use and the fact that one can shove just about anything down the big tube as ammunition makers this a nice trade-of weapon for us.

    Hand-mortars where only used by special military men in war just like that ancient grenade type.
    I see (and never heard of) anyone else using such outside of a big war situation.

    Great discussion material Maharbal. Keep it up.

    #7296

    urbzz
    Keymaster

    Since we are close the the 1700s it would be a nice addition indeed to have a long rifle. Pistol are indeed not that useful in everyday life. However as a Lw player I always liked to rock one or two pistols. Either for when I am in a hand to hand with something that will kill me or for status.

    The hand cannons, blunderbuss and the sorts are a little too much for the setting. They would preferably be found close to ships and the maritime business.

    We can certainly introduce the wheel lock rifle but had the man said in the video this was a special order by a shooting enthusiast. the price and rarity of that thing would be astronomical not to mention the pain of finding custom rounds. I do like rarity however even tho you may encounter such a thing only once in the 1000 LW games you will play.

    #7298

    LWillter
    Participant

    Well … I told someone I wouldn’t post in here because my knowledge is nill to none but would like to provide a few odd links or passages …

    Weapons used in New France (

    muskets
    light hunting musket by militia units
    flintlock muskets by marines
    matchlock muskets with bayonets by marines
    swords
    pike – used by pikemen
    hatchet – used by militiamen
    halberd

    I bolded payonets … I remember urb introducing, or meaning to introduce bayonets … and it would make sense especially with a matchlock musket. Though quickly becoming out of date … the flintlock was by no means common … It won’t be until years later where it becomes a norm … seems 2 out of 3 men will get the matchlock while the other a flintlock. I know this mentions the halberd and pike … but … well … unsure if anyone has ever walked around the woods alone with one of these. Unsure if they should be in. Yes historically accurate, but unless we have large scale fighting, I don’t see their usefulness.

    Continuing from that … it seems we might be stuck with plug bayonets which prevent firing. This mentions that in 1690 the King of France was not impressed with socket-bayonets because they fell off. Link: Bayonets

    Flintlock in New France

    About the time Champlain was establishing Québec (1608), a French gunsmith of the Le Bourgeoys family was perfecting an inexpensive and efficient lock mechanism that represented a real advance in metallurgical knowledge. The flintlock, as it was known, positioned a piece of flint in the jaws of a vise or “cock” powered by a strong “V” spring. When the trigger was pulled, the cock fell forward, the flint struck a steel plate (battery), the sparks produced fell into a small pan of priming powder, and this ignited the main charge. The flintlock rapidly became the most common and best form of firearm available. It was rapidly adopted by the settlers of America and quickly found its way into the hands of the Indians. Gunsmiths and gunmakers in Canada copied designs originating in France or England and supplied a small portion of the local requirement, although most guns were imported by the trading companies or merchants.

    Mind you, I think at this time flintlocks are still not ‘common’ maybe ‘uncommon’ … this paragraph jumps from the 16th to the 18th century in the next.

    It seems during this year the French are actually doing very well and will successfully besiege Boston.

    I am unsure on the availability of weapons … will it be more or less … since France is fighting a war in Europe and the Americas? It seems any weapons cavalry related may not be useful in the game (blunderbusses, pikes, halberds) The blunderbusses are appealing but they seem to be issued to dragoons and not infantry. It does seem like there are official militias are military units forming in New France.

    I sent this to our pirate friend, but will post here (slightly off topic) An Acadian Privateer! Pierre Maisonnat dit Baptiste

    #7301

    Mario5752
    Participant

    Many sources seem to put the year 1650 as just before (~20 years?) mainstream gun trade in the area where Last Winter takes place. However, sources do pin Indian Trade Guns as early as the 1630s. Looking into the Beaver Wars and such under some light reading seems to pin muskets/arquebuses as the only mainstream long barreled guns at the time period. The question is how “french” is urb’s take on the area in the last winter setting? It seems like the Dutch and British were slightly more advanced on the early gun trade than the french in the 1650s. Since I live in Michigan, I may look into some local sources sometime if I ever get the chance time-wise. Will also do some further research. I can confirm through the multiple sources too that wheel locks were too expensive at the time to be overly common as well. Hope this helped somewhat. I am always happy to do more specific research if necessary, don’t hesitate to ask!

    #7304

    urbzz
    Keymaster


    Thanks Mario for you input. More research is alway good man. Here’s what we established so far. We established that LW2 (dev title) will be at the end of the 17th century so it gives us a little more leeway and equipment variety. As of now we also go with the fact that muskets were very different from one to another during that period without much standards. So the provenance of a weapon will give the musket a particularity.

    English: Short and light with a shorter range. Easy to reload (carbine equivalent). uncommon
    French: Heavier caliber so greater range and damage standard reload time, slightly heavier than the english counterpart. (heavy rifle equivalent). common.
    Italian Good range and well made (good reliability and resistant to wear and tear) (Quality standard rifle). uncommon.
    Spanish cheap, common and somewhat all around average. (middle ground in weight dmg and range, workhorse). common.
    Dutch Durable but heavy, long to reload standard range. uncommon (low tech beater)
    Turkish long range, light and extremely decorated with ivory and silver(pricy) long to reload. Rare (exotic markmans, like the duel pistol sof muskets).
    Mukahla (North africa/Morroco) Extreme range and quality but a fairly long and cumbersome weapon. Quick reload. Well known for the quality of workmanship. Very rare. (exotic sniper)
    Trade cheap, low range low durability low damage long reload musket. common (basement bargain boomstick)

    Any research that can substantiate this or disprove it is welcome.

    I also read how the French were not so inclined to arm the indians compared to their english counterparts. This is reflected on the indian factor (the price a native thinks an item is worth when trading).

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by  urbzz.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by  urbzz.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by  urbzz.
    #7309

    Lance
    Moderator

    Good participation Mario. Same goes for me when I looked into how the ravengers eee Europeans dealt with the natives. The English sure where the most ruthless and mostly the worst when it comes to backstabbing their native “friends”.

    Swell list. Stats are fine (save nr6 and 7) and it corresponds with what I have been reading lately about this topic.
    Turkish , Mukahla (?seriously) . . . aww the best firearms manufacturers by country (nationality) is not listed there.. 😉
    Although rarities, guns like, maybe not precisely that one but other breach loading ones like the one I posted up top, where around even before our game time.
    They would cut down reloading by 1/3rd or more but be a lot more prone to failures and expensive repairs or most likely, after getting unusable, not repairable at all but can still be sold as scrap or parts can be taken to repair other things.

    Maybe we can have an item called “various small metal parts”. Then when we try to fix/upgrade something requiring a Metal Crafting Skill this could help in the success roll.

    Just to for kicks. These may be out there in Forts and Cities (common there) and we may get our hands on one of them.
    Some where not to heavy to be used for Hunting and actually have great specs on range and damage that could be interesting to bring down very large animals.
    Wall Guns. This is a late model but they say that similar existed over 100 years prior. https://youtu.be/LkW1Fsaxj-Y
    This is a much larger and older version. Not really suited to lug around but the vid is nice to see how they loaded and fired. https://youtu.be/U2GLbXR3-HI
    This is for example a still usable size for hunting. Notice these guns actually have aiming assistance.

    #7314

    Tyrud
    Moderator

    I’m of the opinion that though impractical, pistols should definitely be in the game as I think they would make a great possible starting drop for the marooner and the nobleman.

    I also like the idea that urb, and now Lance, have presented before where these guns should be open to customization to an extent as was the tradition at the time. You could take your rifle to a gunsmith/blacksmith who could repair it or make some modifications to it for a prices, such as maybe making the stock more comfortable or lighter, fine tuning the mechanism to make it more reliable or maybe even reinforcing the barrel to give it more wear and tear potential. This would be pricey and come with some chance of error, but is a valid long term investment for any dedicated hunter. Additionally, if you were feeling up to the task, and had the skills and materials along with maybe a cabin to do it in, you could attempt some of those modifications yourself, at a higher chance of failing of course, but with no up front costs other than finding the metal bits.

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