Difficulty adjustment effects by Days Ahead/ Behind.

Activity Forums Mud and Blood 3 Suggestions Difficulty adjustment effects by Days Ahead/ Behind.

This topic contains 25 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Mo-Tah 2 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #3078

    Lance
    Moderator

    Since it is almost time for the open beta everyone should participate more in the development progress.
    Time to get more specific with topic threads so that forum organization is as efficient as our awesome game developer.
    INFO: Labeling topic threads. As just “Suggestion(s)” labeled Topics will get slapped from ow on.
    If you are serious about suggesting something then put the core idea into the topic title so that we all know what the thread is about especially for later.

    On with this topic:
    Background info; You as the commander play to gain at least 1 field per game in order to stay on time with the rest of the allied advancing forces.
    Each game played counts as 1 Day in the theater. By advancing more then 1 field per game you move ahead from HQs schedule, and ahead of the normal front lines, by the number of fields you advanced past the 1st one.
    EX: New Profile >> Advance 4 times in one game and you are D-Day 4 with +3 days ahead of schedule and get a Bronx Star at the end of the game.
    You can fall behind schedule by only 1 day at a time when you lose a game regardless of how far you initially advanced.

    Initial Mechanics:
    By being ahead of schedule the game is suppose to become harder for each day you are in front of the regular lines.
    Currently this can be seen by us testers and those that follow our open posts here that the enemy side gets random Reinforcements, in form of a new squad, more often per day ahead.
    Also the enemy gets generally tougher by having increased Combat Skill (better aiming) per day/ field ahead. Can be seen by them getting more hits on us as we advance.
    I must speculate here since I do not know the values and even then it be bad for players to know them at all since that would be used to manipulate the game.

    Suggestions to Days Ahead Mechanics:

    1) I am personally not a fan for giving the enemy increased stats per day ahead since that can become very unrealistic once they get some 100% over the usual values.
    Instead the enemy should use more Skill Based support against you like more Rockets (panzerfaust/-schreck), Mortars, Flares= Artillery, Grenades (especially Rifle type) and any future and not mentioned support as well.
    More vehicles (Tanks!) especially troop trucks and other forms of reinforcements.
    Enemy attack planes would come in at this point too.

    2) To balance out maxed GIs super skills they should either not be available when a certain days ahead line been crossed or they should then have a chance to fail.
    I would say that past 4 days ahead all the top skills of all specialists fail due to either being out of support range like artillery is to far behind so no barrage from the signaller;
    Engineer has no material for the Sandbag Wall; Commando is to deed in enemy territory for a Frenchy to join; Marksman is to unfamiliar with the terrain to use Eagle Eye, ect..

    Second skills fail on the next day ahead so +5 and 1st skill on +6 so that on day D-Day +6 days ahead your men will not have any skills available or they have a good chance to fail.
    Fail chance could start sooner by day 3 already with 30% for top skill, 20% second and 10% first.
    This goes up by 20% per extra day ahead for each skill. Caps at 90% so that there will always be the chance for a skill to work per try.
    This would still leave the player with a 50% chance to use the basic skills, that help a lot, after the others have become a rare happening.

    Reviewing this I tend to favor the % chance of Skill Fail per Day Ahead.

    Suggestions for Days Behind:
    Per day behind the enemy should not get many reinforcements and Troop Trucks should have almost no chance to spawn.
    This does not mean that they are reduced to 0 chance but the reduction should be notable like – 30% chance for Reinforcements of all kinds. Caps at 90% since there will always be that URB moment.
    Also -20% to the total of enemy soldiers in the field and chance for the enemy to have heavy weapons (HMGs), vehicles (tanks ect), and all kinds of soldiers on the field you are currently in. Caps at 60% or 80% depending on how easy this should become.
    Realistically being some (say) 4 days behind means a nice quiet walk back to the front lines with occasional “lost” enemies to mop up along the way.

    Important to the game mechanic be the the difficulty setting adjusts itself to the number of days ahead or behind during the same game so that if you start with (say) 3 days behind that the whole game will be very easy on you and therefore unrealistic.

    #3079

    Lance
    Moderator

    This gets a separate post since it is not fully the same topic.
    Issue with this idea of mine that days ahead reduce the chance to use skills and also the general issue with how far ahead should the player be able to go at all as not to be so far ahead that it would be game breaking and make no logical sense realistically wise at all.

    Currently testers can advance some 10 days ahead (please fellow testers/ players give some numbers here) if they take their time.
    If a player can keep this up in every 3rd game,assuming that every other game was a loss and thus lost a day, that would quickly put the player ahead of schedule by 24 days in just 9 games played.
    In 12 games played that number could be ahead by over a month in real time.
    This seams very unrealistic if looking at it from a real life historical perspective.
    However MNB3 is suppose to be more arcade like then say Recon or even MNB2, hence the limitless ammo and skills timers.

    So basically I am looking for a way to balance this out so that players can not march to the end of the 350 some days the game gives us to be on schedule in a ridiculous record time of say just 20 or a lot less plays.
    This reminds me that urbzz had someone test the game a while back and this person made it to the end in a single run so he said.

    Second notion: My skill fail system idea.
    If it would be implemented this way then a player that advances a lot would get robbed of some of the fruits of having maxed out soldiers.
    For the first time being far ahead that would not be a problem but in every consecutive game the player would be subject to the % chance of skill failure right from the start to the point that all skills would become basically useless.

    Ideas? Thoughts? Suggestions? Replies …… 🙂

    #3082

    mxpamxpa
    Participant

    How about if you advance your squads change to be picked for a special mission by high command increases. So a mission that doesnt affects days or maybe it would take time so you wont be so far ahed, but must be done because hq thinks your squad are the best for the job.

    #3083

    Arise
    Participant

    Ok! I think we need to clear the question first, to prevent same issue happened here again.

    @mxpamxpa I try to guess your thinking, such as you work with side mission and main mission in the map, and that will be count as a day before you finished the side mission. And every of them will be count as a play so player have to challenge more in one day. Thanks >o< Love someone not tester helping us thinking about new idea.

    Key Concept:

    *Ignore about any mission thinking or some other thing may take very long to add to MNB3. MNB3 currently is a simple game with a complete field setting, just like a Recon without Mission map. We build Campaign Mod now, so you walk on a straight line and keep advance for every day. Theme will change as you advance, and there will have different landscape and terrain so you will need different style for fight.

    *We talk about the thinking how to manage the real meaning of ahead and behind which relate to German Strength. It is a very original problem, what means weak what means strong for German? Less reinforcement or lower damage seems weak, more special unit or lots of Grenade seems tough. The thinking have to make sense on the game play, and should obey with the history view about WW2 after D-Day. Maybe we will get more, but that will base on the key combat factor between the Alley and German. So we need more idea from this part.

    *The idea should be as easy as possible to add to the game, try to not build with a massive work on any system. It is a flash game, so we have our limit, also there is only one coder, so coding take time. effective thinking would be main way, the simple the better on suggestion.

    Thanks guys, keep coming with more idea. >o<

    Final, Thanks @lance That is a great long post lol I will find the time to reply my thinking on this, as now I got too many article work in my free time. XDD

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by  Arise.
    #3085

    Kacpo
    Participant

    I agree that increasing ort decreasing enemy combat skill is not the best idea.
    I don’t like the idea of skills failing chance either.
    The amount of enemies, the availibility of their equipement and vechicles sounds much better.

    The variables I’d include are:
    – amount of enemies per day on the field
    – chance of enemy reinforcements
    – chance of encountering vechicles (starts adding up on +5 days or so to avoid excessive use of tanks and such.)
    – amount of equipement available for the enemy

    Experimental ideas:
    -skills cooldown timers (longer when ahead (up to 100%) shorter when behind (up to -50%)

    -Other thing I could thing to add was a +/-1 opportunity call per 5 days behind/ahead (althought this would only benefit you if you had a signaller on your team. But there’s been a discussion about making the calls independant from the RTO, so maybe that’ll be a viable option)

    -Free allied supply/weapon crate at the begininig of the day, when 5+ days behind, to give your team a head start.

    What values are we talking here?
    -Honestly, when I’m playing, I’m ususally staying at +5 days or so ahead, but I’ve heard Arise(or someone else, can’t remember now) mentioning them being at +20 or more.
    What values exactly are we expecting players to reach, and therefore what resistance to face? Should we make a top cap at which game is hardest possible, but still playable, or just pump everything up, until there is no way to ever be able to win the fight (kind of MnB2 style)?

    -Should the bonuses kick in rigt at +/-1 day, or give more room for trying again, before lowering the difficulty? I do believe that disadvantages should kick in rigt at +1 day ahead, but am not sure about lowering the difficulty at -1 day.

    #3086

    Tyrud
    Moderator

    @lance I like your suggestions. Actually on this topic, the article you posted recently explaining German squad organization helps greatly in coming up with ideas for how to balance difficulty based on days ahead/behind. I don’t see why we can’t have both the enemy units getting harder and the player facing simulated supply shortages, in either through an increasing chance of skill failing and/or through longer cooldown timers for skills for each day ahead.

    As a matter of fact, the article mentions that because the Allies had the numerical advantage, the only thing the Germans could hope for was tactical surprise, and that meant having German recon units doing everything possible to force a retreat of or destroy Allied recon units, like our unit (vanguards basically scout with their bodies). As we get further in, we should see more elite type units with good equipment getting in our way as our own supplies start to stretch and dwindle. Lots of light “firefighting’ units with SMGs and support would start showing up along with the recon battalions as the Germans intend to close the gap.

    Meanwhile, on days behind, we should see the reverse effect for the Germans. Lots of very low quality, scattered infantry with maybe the occasional goodie bag from Allied HQ to help get our asses back up to speed (faster cooldowns on most basic and some advanced skills). Everything would get recalculated every time the player gets to the end so that if they choose to advance or stay, so that the game normalizes to where it needs to be for every advance.

    #3091

    Mexican Batman
    Participant

    I like the suggestions but I don’t think allied or axis troops should be changed too much. I think just maybe supply and cool downs be increased or decreased depending on how ahead or behind you are and less opportunity calls should be implemented as an addition to that. I think URB already did things pretty well on the balancing for days ahead and days behind atm.

    #3100

    Hyyppa
    Moderator

    My personal opinion regarding being behind/ahead of schedule:

    If the player is ahead of schedule, they have punched their way through the German battlelines deeper than historically and are pushing ahead of the other divisions in the area. That means the Germans are forced to attempt to close the breach by sending more troops against the commander. The enemy numbers should increase alongside their tendency to reinforce. Since the game already uses historical equipment distribution, there is no sense in increasing the amount of support weaponery available to the Germans. The skill of the German infantryman should remain unchanged unless we are specifically engaging a battle-hardened/elite unit instead of the standard Wehrmacht. We have aggressive general leading the division and Patton will make sure to push everything available through the breach after us so the logistical trail should be protected constantly.

    If falling behind schedule, a salient forms up in the line. The Germans in the salient will be pressed from the flanks by the other advancing divisions and the point is being worn down by the commanders attacks. Germans are forced to pull troops away from the salient to prevent a pocket from forming up and to try to hold back the other frontlines. The numbers of troops in the salient reduces and the ability to reinforce it slows down as commander falls behind. If fallen behind enough, the German troops will become highly battle-weary and few in numbers that their combat skills drop making them less accurate but equally deadly damage-wise. The support weapons might see a decline as the battle progresses due to logistical issues. Stationery weapons should remain equally common but flares and panzerfausts might become more rare. Tanks and other vehicles might also become less common due to losses suffered and inability to replenish them in the salient.

    Punishing the players ability to fight feels bit redundant since it directly effects the ability to counter the enemy maneuvers leaving the player incapable of responding even to simple obstacles. Making the Germans super soldiers/Volkssturm is equally bad since that does not change the fundamental gameplay at all. Increasing the numbers allows the support weapons to be more common and stationery weapons to become more heavily defended. Battlelines and defensive positions will be hard to capture and counter-attacks become a thing.

    #3102

    Reid
    Moderator

    Hyyppa said it all. Logically speaking the Germans wouldn’t get more skilled in proportion to how deep you are into their lines. Nor would it make sense for them to have 5 combat skill if you were 20 days behind (although a reduction in accuracy to simulate fatigue would make sense)

    Realistically, the number of enemies looking to squash you is what would increase if you got several days ahead of schedule. If the Germans got deep inside your lines, they would have the same problem but with the Allies.

    An idea but not so much a suggestion: What if you started with an extra soldier for every day you are behind schedule?

    #3103

    Lance
    Moderator

    Awesome feedback you all.
    I have currently nothing to add to my first post here but my second posts issue has not been addressed so far by others.
    Recap; Should there be a mechanic in game that would almost certainly stop players from getting way to far ahead of schedule?
    I already see some players taking a week of just to attempt to beat the game in a single run.
    Should that be even possible?
    Idea: Maybe instead of being Days-Ahead (if made) for the following game the game will always put you back to the actual D-Day (current time/ nr of plays) and you get a rewards for having advanced more fields then needed.

    #3104

    Mexican Batman
    Participant

    I don’t think it should set you back but I do think there should be ribbons maybe for being consecutively ahead for so much time . I also think there should be a completing the game ribbon you get for finishing.

    #3105

    Lance
    Moderator

    hmm awards. Not what I am trying to highlight here.
    Simple question. How far ahead should a player be able to advance?
    In a single game? At any one time? In total before the end of the war?
    No limit as so as long as the player can beat the toughness of being ahead it does not matter?

    #3106

    Kacpo
    Participant

    I think that ribbon for being ahead is just too obvious. I’d say 5 days and 10 days. For me it’s comparable to 50 and 100 waves in MnB2 when it comes to difficulity.

    @lance, These are the questions’s I’ve been asking above :p
    Honestly; I believe that in order to stick to the URB way of things;
    No cap on days ahead
    No cap on legs per day

    Total/overall days ahead/behind
    Although sensible, very tough barrier should be at 15-20 days ahead.
    The increase in enemy equipement and numbers means that at this point, when starting new leg, player should encounter something like: 2 trenches, with 3 grenadiers in each, an MG and a sniper right behind them. Also, every german has a grenade on himself. Oh, and reinforcements roll in in 5 minutes. With a tank. (But just a Panzer IV not to make it too OP :p)
    It’s not hard cap, but honestly, formation like this is practically unbeatable for the player.

    Advancements on single day
    The differenc is that, the player already has a badass squad, so throwing more germans is not going to help much, since they are going to bet picked off by marksmen, cut down by pro gunners and commandos and mauled by airstrikes and grenades.
    I see one simple remedy: increase cooldowns of skills for every leg. Also, make the increases incremental. (+10% on first advance, +25% on second, +40% on third, +60% on forth, ETC.)
    This will make sure that a team won’t be able to just rofl-stomp everything in their way anymore, while still leaving the passive skills and weapons of the team usefull and fun to play.

    Other idea: Make it possible for germans to outflank allies by popping up on the edge of the map, even behind allied lines. Makes sense, because you’re a lone squad pushing into enemy lines. At the same time this can create enought distraction and diversion in allied troops to inflict some damage.
    This, combined with longer skill timers, means that even without a casualty, any wounded will take much longer to heal (intense care and medkit being on longer cooldowns) which might result in reinforcements coming in, and more flankers. That means more casualties for allies, and eventually, a game over. (Unless player manages to finish a leg and call it a day.)

    Once again, let me remind/emphasize: Statistics of regular German soldier are NOT a subject to change based on days ahead/behind.
    no matter how good/bad you are, you are always facing the same enemies, only in different situations.

    That’s my idea.
    Opinions?

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by  Kacpo.
    #3108

    Arise
    Participant

    @mexicanbatman The ahead Medal is already in the game, when you pass through the some point with ahead +X day you will get that easy medal.

    I agree like what Hyyppa said, And I am going to catch up his idea for this one, one of annoying one in old MNB2 – Flanking!

    It is a fact after you come too deep in the enemy line, you will likely been cut off and surround, so flanking is another good factor to keep pressure on player in future. Although I don’t think somehow we get attack from our back is intentionally as it seems base on some issue for coding. lol But I think it is quiet good if we can really handle it in future.

    I also agree with one point, the strength of German should only come from the numbers or reinforcement number, not skill or some others as that is not close to the real battlefield. The thing we can do is adding some expert force compare with normal German troop which have average powerful ability to against the Alley, have more armor and more weapon support like Panzerfaust or grenade. Something like SS? probably.

    Small Test about ahead 100 days


    Looks weird right?

    #3109

    Arise
    Participant

    Base on the skill cooling timer, remember what we have about the Increase cooling timer in the old forum? That is another possible thinking, to limit player over using their skill, will have to reset the timer by catch the supply. As you are more ahead then less Alley supply you will get. SO you suck without skill then. Probably can be another option. Just not sure how hard it will be code. >o<

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